A couple thoughts on Bill Moyer's "Is God Green?"
--It's great to finally see this becoming a legitimate topic of discussion in Christian circles.
--- I wish global warming hadn't been such a big focus of the show. Regardless of whether global warming is human cause or part of nature's cycle, there is plenty of other poor environmental and financial choices that we are making otherwise.
---For me, the big deal is to get individuals, myself first, to see effects that our daily actions and choices have. It's too easy to put the blame of bad environment on government or big corporations. I have a responsibility for my own actions before I call on the actions of others. I findi it hard to call the government or a corporation to accountability if I'm doing the exact same thing in my own household but ignoring the problem.
--Don't ask me to look into the eyes of the worker at FoxConn Electronics in China who gets $80 a month, works 15 hours a day, sleeps in factory bunks, and eats factory food so that I can listen to my Ipod I won for free. They can only observe my prosperity from a distance, and I can ignore their desparate situation. It's too big of a problem for me to deal with. Don't ask me to trade my salary now for $20 a day doing the exact same thing. Honestly, the time may come if we continue outsourcing engineering jobs to China/India and the thought does not make me happy.
--Why does the Right think the Left, or vice-versa, always have a political agenda or an alterior motive? Can't we just focus on the issues and what is being said, rather than try to see the worse in each other. Christian environmentalists are not worshipping the earth and militant Christian abortion rights activists are not worshipping the baby. They are both legitimate outworkings of faith in action.
--It really hurt to see Dr. Cal Beisner ( a former Covenant College professor of which I am a fairly proud alumnus) be so callous and seemingly arrogant at several points. His attitude of -'I'm going to live forever in eternity so what do these three score and twenty years on earth really matter?'- is entirely uncompassionate towards those who really do suffer on earth. He expressed no visible remorse over Hurricane Katrina and other 'natural' disasters of God's will. Fine, say it was God's will, but then follow it with remorse over the death's and how God has used the situation for good. Instead it seemed like he took at as an unfortunate side effect of the Fall, therefore we just deal with it. I will admit I had this attitude in the past which is maybe why I'm so sensitive to it in others.
--Holy Cow, what is up with Dr. Beisner's use of 'dominion' of the earth in Genesis. He took it to mean a 'forceful ruling' and used it to justify blowing up mountains for coal and leaving them for dead as okay, even as a necessary evil or part of the fall. What, is that what this means? You have to tear the earth apart in order to have dominion over it? It made me sad to hear him say this. Do I have 'dominion' over my family as the male headship by forcefully ruling over them as long as it makes them obedient to God? Huh?
--It really hurt to see Dobson and Dr. Cal Beisner defend the free market as Biblical truth and take its unfortunate side effect of abuse of the earth as okay or a part of sin. Sounds to me like wealth is being placed above spiritual or ethical consideration. When does wealth drive or throw away a Christian's spiritual conscience? How much damage is one allowed to do to another in order to take care of one's family? It would not be an easy decision for me as a coal miner in West Virginia to leave the job if I thought my family was going to starve.
--If you are still reading then you may have guessed I wasn't too impressed with Dr. Cal Beisner, and it makes me sad. He was suppossed represent the Reformed faith and its strength. Instead, he represented what I've become to see as common weaknesses of the Reformed faith. One of the weaknesses is holding on to a theological mindset so tightly that it clouds Compassion and can miss the heart of the Gospel. Did you notice the Joy, Intensity, and Excitement in Tri Robinson's voice as he spoke of Christianity and the Environment? Where was that in Dr. Cal Beisner's talk. I was depressed listening to Dr. Beisner's view of how the Bible views our responsibility on earth. Maybe he was more compassionate in the interview and it didn't get played in the show or was left out on purpose. I don't know. I do know that his attitude and beliefs are typical of many in the Reformed Presbyterian (by Reformed I mean those that hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith and John Calvin as on near par with the Bible) faith and it hurts. Hurts because there are scales that need to be removed. Scales I once had in abundance and am grateful they are dropping off. I grew up in and was educated in the Reformed faith. I have a deep respect and fondness for it still. In many ways I desparately want to attend a Reformed Presbyterian church because of it's familiarity and strengths. But at the same time, I stopped growing spiritually staying just in the Reformed circle. I can't state exactly why or put a finger on it. Part of it is that I've begun to see that there were too many theological walls put up (intentional or not) to other denominations and Christians. I have weaknesses in my spiritual armor that need to be filled. All this to say that the PCA church and the Vineyard church here in Boise are still among our choices of churches to join and it isn't easy deciding. By the way, you should subscribe to the PCA's byFaith Magazine.
--Why would you be opposed to taking care of the earth? How is saving the life of one baby through stopping abortion more noble than saving one baby by ensuring a clean environment to grow in? Why do we think there is more moral high ground in stopping abortion than saving lives through ensuring a clean environment? I think it is because it is obvious that abortion kills, but it is harder to pinpoint the effects of pollution as the cause of death.
-- I'm finding it really difficult lately when discussion start with the words "If you take the Bible seriously..." Everybody who calls themself a Christian says this to the point that it doesn't mean anything. Of course we take the Bible seriously and are seeking to understand it and do what it says. I don't question the Bible as having the ultimate truth, I question our ability to get it at cleanly and for one person/denomination to have it completely right.
So, there are some of my thoughts. What are yours?
Posted by andyp at October 12, 2006 3:26 AM | TrackBack
It's amazing all the personal connections from that documentary. We flipped out when we saw Cal Beisner. Whoa!!!
My main take away was needing to be educated on global warming. Haven't read much on it. So if anyone has any good links post em here.
I have read some interesting fodder on recycling lately. It seems there is a school of thought that a lot of good intentions are gravely misplaced. I want to preserve the environment, but I want my efforts to be effective.
Here's some reading on the recycling issue:
Maybe recycling is wasteful and actually harms the environment?
Our Widespread Faith In Recycling Is Misplaced
"...A new study from the Reason Foundation, "Packaging, Recycling, and Solid Waste," concludes that recycling, though sometimes beneficial, all too often wastes resources. But then, it has long been known that most trash isn't worth reusing, recycling programs usually lose money, and landfills offer a safe disposal method.
Indeed, a year ago John Tierney wrote a devastating article for The New York Times Magazine titled "Recyling is Garbage." He declared that the emperor had no clothes: "Recycling may be the most wasteful activity in modern America: a waste of time and money, a waste of human and natural resources.""
"Yet there is no environmental reason to recycle trash. Resources are not scarce. In fact, much newsprint comes from trees grown for that specific purpose. Even Worldwatch, a reliably hysterical group that has constantly (though luckily, so far inaccurately) predicted impending environmental doom, now acknowledges: "The question of scarcity may never have been the most important one."
"...Moreover, making recyclables generates waste. For instance, producing paperboard burger containers yields more air and water pollution and consumes more energy than does manufacturing polystyrene clamshells. It takes more water to recycle newsprint than to make it afresh.
How can such a wasteful practice persist? Tierney concluded: "By turning garbage into a political issue, environmentalists have created jobs for themselves as lawyers, lobbyists, researchers, educators and moral guardians. Environmentalists may genuinely believe they're helping the Earth, but they have been hurting the common good while profiting personally.""
"Recyling is Garbage"
"Mandatory recycling programs aren't good for posterity. They offer mainly short-term benefits to a few groups-politicians, public relations consultants, environmental organizations, waste-handling corporations-while diverting money from genuine social and environmental problems. Recycling may be the most wasteful activity in modern America: a waste of time and money, a waste of human and natural resources."
"...We're squandering irreplaceable natural resources. Yes, a lot of trees have been cut down to make today's newspaper. But even more trees will probably be planted in their place. America's supply of timber has been increasing for decades, and the nation's forests have three times more wood today than in 1920. "We're not running out of wood, so why do we worry so much about recycling paper?" asks Jerry Taylor, the director of natural resource studies at the Cato Institute. "Paper is an agricultural product, made from trees grown specifically for paper production. Acting to conserve trees by recycling paper is like acting to conserve cornstalks by cutting back on corn consumption.""
In addition to that reading apparently Penn and Teller exposed the recycling movement on their show. Here's the link, and you can watch the show:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do... ler+bullshit
Here's a perspective on the Ronald McDonald pop top recycling program:
Thousands of elementary schools and other groups around the country collect aluminum poptops, which McDonalds recycles.
The net effect, however, is negative.
It takes about 3,000 poptops to make a pound of aluminum, which sells for about $0.80. When kids collect their 100 or so poptops per kid, they put them in sandwich or ziplock baggies, at a cost of up to $0.25/bag. So right there, you have a net loss. The school produces flyers that go home a couple of times per year per kid, at a cost of $0.04/each...the costs keep mounting up. By the time the poptops have been driven to McDonalds for collection, the net loss is probably over 1,000%.
Recycling can be a boondoggle.
I don't mean to be a negative ninny. I really don't, but I want to know what the real issues are in saving the environment. If it turns out the most known and practiced one actually harms the environment, what are the true impactful methods for us to partake in?
Kate and I feel like our thrift store substitute for a shopping mall is our best form of recycling. Reusing what has already been made, but using up $1000 dollars of resources to reuse $1 worth of resources seems ineffective to me.
Posted by: Joel K at October 12, 2006 10:43 AMI was indeed surprised to see Cal Beisner. Holy Cow!! And it was impressive to me that the Evangelicals interested in the enviroment were very heartfelt, passionate and thankful for what God had given them. Beisner, as far as I can remember has never been a warm person, we dreaded taking him on in the bookstore for various not-so-important reasons. And knowing the history of other PBS shows they tend to lean left and I can see them clipping out ANY warmth Beisner might have shown. But let's face it, he wasn't there to be warm and play up to emotions. He wrote a paper, and papers for this matter are not to be emotional, right??
Of course Joel and I have decided that the Presbyterian church has much to be desired as far as what we long for in a church and have found comfort in the Vineyard even though they have many shortcomings as well. Sinners build churches! Warmth and Passion about God, his love, his faithfulness, his gifts, etc. all of these things were expressed with more emotion in the charismatic church and thus, this difference shows here too. I can't blame Beisner for his lack of warmth. It's not foreign to me to see his logic and faith expressed with not a blink. Logic is just that. Be a robot, that's up to you!
I agree that Beisner showed little compassion for Katrina victims but do you disagree with his statement that Katrina was God's will? I don't disagree, I believe his point was acurate. But the spin will be that he was again, a robot. Telling the doctrinal fact, that's that. I do not agree however that global warming and blowing up mountains is God's will. Even if it is, how are we to know? Shouldn't we at least TRY to stop something bad from happening? I want to be the person helping those folks in WV. not the person arguing with Beisner.
Joel and I agreed that we would like to read some of the findings that scientest from the the UK has. I am prone to great fear when these things come up, and I would like to read the findings from people that also have hope about the issue. I hate reading fatalistic things, and I need to know someone is willing to PRAY above all else.
As far as the whole recycling thing goes, I have no idea. I wish someone would just tell the truth. But until I then, I will do what I can to not be wasteful in my home. I will reuse containers, giftwrap, those scoops that come with laundry detergent. I will get the news via the WWW instead of getting the paper. I will use paper bags at Whole Foods and bring them back again and again. And like Joel said, the thrift stores. I cannot jump headlong into something that my heart is not 100% commited to. And curb side recycling is one of those things. Like I said reusing in my own home is a sure thing. I'll stick to that until we as a family make a full commitment.
God Bless you guys in your persuit of the right church. It sure sounds like the Vineyard in Boise is a great community. I don't think I would have a problem with anything they are doing. I hope you all find peace and a happy place to use all your giftings.
God is always in control. Creation groans for His return.
Posted by: katiek at October 12, 2006 4:05 PMFirst, I should admit that I have not seen the documentary. I think it is excellent that Christians in our generation are starting to look beyond the Left vs. Right thing and ask our selves what what our relationship with Christ would compel us to do. I grew up in a home where it was assumed that anyone who "takes the Bible seriously" must be a Republican. It is sad to see unbridled self-indulgence and trashing of the world around us proclaimed as things Christians should be proud of. I think Christians have a lot to offer to both sides of the cultural debate, because both have some serious evil both in practice and policy.
Check out this site. While I couldn't agree with everything they say, it seems they are working on a biblical way of approaching a fallen world.
Good thoughts, Andy.
Posted by: Jonathan at October 15, 2006 10:56 PMI have to admit up front that unfortunately I was unable to watch the documentary, but I also agree with Katie, Cal may be a godly man but I never viewed him as a 'warm' person at all! If for instance Tim Morris had spoken I think we would have gone away with an entirely different view. I think that's a point of caution, we can't go on how we 'feel' about what was presented. Jerry and I saw another documentary a while back that I came away with the facts presented that global warming facts were being skewed to sound one way or another depending on the presenters viewpoint. I'm a tree hugger myself and have always been grateful and felt reponsible for what I can do to act responsively in caring for the wonderful and diverse environment God has provided for us. It has been a frustration of ours that it is very difficult to recycle where we live. It requires a lot of work on our part and is complicated. You were fortunate in Atlanta in being able to recycle and also in Boise. I was glad we were able to recycle all that cardboard when you moved. I think we need to be cautious in throwing out the baby with the bath water in judging the PCA by Cal's lack of warmth.
I personally really felt the pastor of the Boise PCA was very solid Biblically and was one of the best young pastors I've heard in years. On the other hand Jerry and I both were somewhat uncomfortable in NY at the Vineyard church. It felt to me like it was more focused on feelings evoked thru music than focusing on solid Biblical teaching. We will continue to pray God directs you to the church where He wants you.
Posted by: Cindy at October 16, 2006 6:55 AMSorry this may be a bit off topic, but can someone truly be a "godly person" without kindness showing in our lives? I admit that there are differences of personality that must be accounted for and not every situation calls for "warm fuzzies," but if Christ is truly at work in us how can others not feel (yes, feel emotionally) His love and grace through their contact with us?
I never knew Beisner, but I was constantly hearing about him. Everyone said he was smart, but I can't recall a single time I heard one of his students describe him with a "fruit of the Holy Spirit." I don't know this man at all so I shouldn't be speaking ill of him (especially as I have some serious gaps in my own godliness) but if we in the PCA excuse lack of Christ-like behavior in those with lots of Christian intelligence then non-believers have good reason not to be drawn to our fellowship.
Posted by: Jonathan at October 16, 2006 8:09 AMNot sure if we have your email, but wanted to give you a link to the housing concept we might be moving into in Chattanooga. It's called an earthcraft house. www.earthcrafthouse.com It's an affordable "green" housing concept.
Posted by: Joel K at October 20, 2006 10:19 AMI went away feeling sick to my stomach and HURT by Beisner's interview and Dobson's quote (forgive me but all I can remember is that he cited political repurcussions, not the Bible or even right vs wrong - though, again, who knows what was cut?). No, we can't go away with only what we feel about a situation, but we cannot pretend that God is not a feeler. We cannot pretend that feeling strongly about something is necessarily going to cloud our spiritual identity. We are whole beings w/fallen emotions and fallen intellect, both of which need to be weighed and balanced by the Spirit and the Word. Yes, God is supreme and Katrina was within His will. And yes, I believe God aches over the atrocities that happened in New Orleans and elsewhere, longing to ease the pain & suffering, to give the water that will keep us from thirsting again. When Beisner flitted lightly over the deep issues contained in Katrina he denied who we are as whole creatures made in the image of God and belittled the sanctity of the lives affected. God wants us to be His arms that hold the achers, His eyes that shed tears for the hurting.
Thanks for the links, Joel. I've read off and on conflicting opinions on the efficacy of recycling but not a whole lot of facts. What we do need to do is exactly as Katie says, what we know IS effective. Reuse bags, shop used, etc. And, most importantly, we need to be open to the facts and engage with others as human beings, not as right, left, conservative or liberal.
As for Vineyard vs PCA I thank you, Katie for your reminder churches are built by sinners. There is no perfect church (other than, of course the one on McDaniel St in the ATL). We are looking for one we can both serve within and have our needs met. We are looking for a solid Biblical foundation and an active outworking of the Holy Spirit. Andy and I are both extremely grateful for our strong theological backgrounds. We are in no way belittling our heritage. I can't put strongly enough how blessed we were to be raised in the rich theology we grew up with, but we want to find as good a balance as we can of both God's mind and God's heart. I hate, Mom, that you are already biased against any Vineyard b/c of your one experience w/one congregation. Perhaps we can get hold of some of Tri's sermon tapes for you.
Jonathon, I've thought a lot the last few years about reformed circles' tendency to worship the Bible and theology rather than God Himself. We okay a cold-hearted man who has all his theological ducks in a row, but worry about a smoker who nonetheless is kind, peaceful, patient, joyful and so on. We okay judging on the merits that we will know someone by their fruit yet we do not use as criteria the very fruit the Bible tells us is given by God's Spirit. We use our own man-made laws and measures, trying for all we're worth to climb back into the laps of the Pharisees. Otherwise not just salvation but works as well may just be a gift we can't quite earn.
Thanks all for your opinions and prayers. I love this little WWW, keeping us a bit closer from 3000 miles away.
Posted by: lynnp at October 25, 2006 12:41 AM